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The Case of the Rebellious Son
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Judaism and Precognition: The Case of the Rebellious Son
(יח) כִּֽי־יִהְיֶ֣ה לְאִ֗ישׁ בֵּ֚ן סוֹרֵ֣ר וּמוֹרֶ֔ה אֵינֶ֣נּוּ שֹׁמֵ֔עַ בְּק֥וֹל אָבִ֖יו וּבְק֣וֹל אִמּ֑וֹ וְיסְּר֣וּ אֹת֔וֹ וְלֹ֥א יִשְׁמַ֖ע אֲלֵיהֶֽם׃ (יט) וְתָ֥פְשׂוּ ב֖וֹ אָבִ֣יו וְאִמּ֑וֹ וְהוֹצִ֧יאוּ אֹת֛וֹ אֶל־זִקְנֵ֥י עִיר֖וֹ וְאֶל־שַׁ֥עַר מְקֹמֽוֹ׃ (כ) וְאָמְר֞וּ אֶל־זִקְנֵ֣י עִיר֗וֹ בְּנֵ֤נוּ זֶה֙ סוֹרֵ֣ר וּמֹרֶ֔ה אֵינֶ֥נּוּ שֹׁמֵ֖עַ בְּקֹלֵ֑נוּ זוֹלֵ֖ל וְסֹבֵֽא׃ (כא) וּ֠רְגָמֻהוּ כָּל־אַנְשֵׁ֨י עִיר֤וֹ בָֽאֲבָנִים֙ וָמֵ֔ת וּבִֽעַרְתָּ֥ הָרָ֖ע מִקִּרְבֶּ֑ךָ וְכָל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יִשְׁמְע֥וּ וְיִרָֽאוּ׃ (ס)
(18) If a man has a wayward and defiant son, who does not heed his father or mother and does not obey them even after they discipline him, (19) his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the public place of his community. (20) They shall say to the elders of his town, “This son of ours is disloyal and defiant; he does not heed us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” (21) Thereupon the men of his town shall stone him to death. Thus you will sweep out evil from your midst: all Israel will hear and be afraid.

(א) בֵּן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, מֵאֵימָתַי נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, מִשֶּׁיָּבִיא שְׁתֵּי שְׂעָרוֹת וְעַד שֶׁיַּקִּיף זָקָן, הַתַּחְתּוֹן וְלֹא הָעֶלְיוֹן, אֶלָּא שֶׁדִּבְּרוּ חֲכָמִים בְּלָשׁוֹן נְקִיָּה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא), כִּי יִהְיֶה לְאִישׁ בֵּן, בֵּן וְלֹא בַת, בֵּן וְלֹא אִישׁ. הַקָּטָן פָּטוּר, שֶׁלֹּא בָא לִכְלָל מִצְוֹת:

(ב) מֵאֵימָתַי חַיָּב, מִשֶּׁיֹּאכַל טַרְטֵימַר בָּשָׂר וְיִשְׁתֶּה חֲצִי לֹג יַיִן הָאִיטַלְקִי. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר, מָנֶה בָּשָׂר וְלֹג יָיִן. אָכַל בַּחֲבוּרַת מִצְוָה, אָכַל בְּעִבּוּר הַחֹדֶשׁ, אָכַל מַעֲשֵׂר שֵׁנִי בִּירוּשָׁלַיִם, אָכַל נְבֵלוֹת וּטְרֵפוֹת, שְׁקָצִים וּרְמָשִׂים, אָכַל טֶבֶל וּמַעֲשֵׂר רִאשׁוֹן שֶׁלֹּא נִטְּלָה תְרוּמָתוֹ וּמַעֲשֵׂר שֵׁנִי וְהֶקְדֵּשׁ שֶׁלֹּא נִפְדּוּ, אָכַל דָּבָר שֶׁהוּא מִצְוָה וְדָבָר שֶׁהוּא עֲבֵרָה, אָכַל כָּל מַאֲכָל וְלֹא אָכַל בָּשָׂר, שָׁתָה כָל מַשְׁקֶה וְלֹא שָׁתָה יַיִן, אֵינוֹ נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, עַד שֶׁיֹּאכַל בָּשָׂר וְיִשְׁתֶּה יַיִן, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא) זוֹלֵל וְסֹבֵא. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁאֵין רְאָיָה לַדָּבָר, זֵכֶר לַדָּבָר, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (משלי כג) אַל תְּהִי בְסֹבְאֵי יָיִן בְּזֹלְלֵי בָשָׂר לָמוֹ:

(ג) גָּנַב מִשֶּׁל אָבִיו וְאָכַל בִּרְשׁוּת אָבִיו, מִשֶּׁל אֲחֵרִים וְאָכַל בִּרְשׁוּת אֲחֵרִים, מִשֶּׁל אֲחֵרִים וְאָכַל בִּרְשׁוּת אָבִיו, אֵינוֹ נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, עַד שֶׁיִּגְנֹב מִשֶּׁל אָבִיו וְיֹאכַל בִּרְשׁוּת אֲחֵרִים. רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בַר רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר, עַד שֶׁיִּגְנֹב מִשֶּׁל אָבִיו וּמִשֶּׁל אִמּוֹ:

(ד) הָיָה אָבִיו רוֹצֶה וְאִמּוֹ אֵינָהּ רוֹצָה, אָבִיו אֵינוֹ רוֹצֶה וְאִמּוֹ רוֹצָה, אֵינוֹ נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, עַד שֶׁיְּהוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם רוֹצִים. רַבִּי יְהוּדָה אוֹמֵר, אִם לֹא הָיְתָה אִמּוֹ רְאוּיָה לְאָבִיו, אֵינוֹ נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה. הָיָה אֶחָד מֵהֶם גִּדֵּם אוֹ חִגֵּר אוֹ אִלֵּם אוֹ סוּמָא אוֹ חֵרֵשׁ, אֵינוֹ נַעֲשֶׂה בֵן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא) וְתָפְשׂוּ בוֹ אָבִיו וְאִמּוֹ, וְלֹא גִדְּמִין. וְהוֹצִיאוּ אֹתוֹ, וְלֹא חִגְּרִין. וְאָמְרוּ, וְלֹא אִלְּמִין. בְּנֵנוּ זֶה, וְלֹא סוּמִין. אֵינֶנּוּ שֹׁמֵעַ בְּקֹלֵנוּ, וְלֹא חֵרְשִׁין. מַתְרִין בּוֹ בִּפְנֵי שְׁלֹשָׁה וּמַלְקִין אוֹתוֹ. חָזַר וְקִלְקֵל, נִדּוֹן בְּעֶשְׂרִים וּשְׁלֹשָׁה. וְאֵינוֹ נִסְקָל עַד שֶׁיְּהוּ שָׁם שְׁלֹשָׁה הָרִאשׁוֹנִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שם) בְּנֵנוּ זֶה, זֶהוּ שֶׁלָּקָה בִּפְנֵיכֶם. בָּרַח עַד שֶׁלֹּא נִגְמַר דִּינוֹ וְאַחַר כָּךְ הִקִּיף זָקָן הַתַּחְתּוֹן, פָּטוּר. וְאִם מִשֶּׁנִּגְמַר דִּינוֹ בָּרַח וְאַחַר כָּךְ הִקִּיף זָקָן הַתַּחְתּוֹן, חַיָּב:

(ה) בֵּן סוֹרֵר וּמוֹרֶה נִדּוֹן עַל שֵׁם סוֹפוֹ, יָמוּת זַכַּאי וְאַל יָמוּת חַיָּב, שֶׁמִּיתָתָן שֶׁל רְשָׁעִים הֲנָאָה לָהֶן וַהֲנָאָה לָעוֹלָם, וְלַצַּדִּיקִים, רַע לָהֶן וְרַע לָעוֹלָם. יַיִן וְשֵׁנָה לָרְשָׁעִים, הֲנָאָה לָהֶן וַהֲנָאָה לָעוֹלָם, וְלַצַּדִּיקִים, רַע לָהֶן וְרַע לָעוֹלָם. פִּזּוּר לָרְשָׁעִים, הֲנָאָה לָהֶן וַהֲנָאָה לָעוֹלָם, וְלַצַּדִּיקִים, רַע לָהֶן וְרַע לָעוֹלָם. כִּנּוּס לָרְשָׁעִים, רַע לָהֶן וְרַע לָעוֹלָם, וְלַצַּדִּיקִים, הֲנָאָה לָהֶן וַהֲנָאָה לָעוֹלָם. שֶׁקֶט לָרְשָׁעִים, רַע לָהֶן וְרַע לָעוֹלָם, וְלַצַּדִּיקִים, הֲנָאָה לָהֶן וַהֲנָאָה לָעוֹלָם:

(ו) הַבָּא בַמַּחְתֶּרֶת נִדּוֹן עַל שֵׁם סוֹפוֹ. הָיָה בָא בַמַּחְתֶּרֶת וְשָׁבַר אֶת הֶחָבִית, אִם יֶשׁ לוֹ דָמִים, חַיָּב. אִם אֵין לוֹ דָמִים, פָּטוּר:

(ז) וְאֵלּוּ הֵן שֶׁמַּצִּילִין אוֹתָן בְּנַפְשָׁן, הָרוֹדֵף אַחַר חֲבֵרוֹ לְהָרְגוֹ, אַחַר הַזְּכוּר וְאַחַר הַנַּעֲרָה הַמְאֹרָסָה. אֲבָל הָרוֹדֵף אַחַר בְּהֵמָה, וְהַמְחַלֵּל אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת, וְהָעוֹבֵד עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה, אֵין מַצִּילִין אוֹתָן בְּנַפְשָׁן:

(1) A wayward and rebellious son- at what time can he become a wayward and rebellious son? From when he grows two hairs until the beard grows full. [This refers to] the lower beard, not the upper beard, [but this expression is used] since the Sages spoke in clean language. As it says, (Deuteronomy 21:18) "If a man have a son": "a son," and not a daughter; "a son," and not a man. A minor is exempt, for he has not entered the category of [those obligated in] the commandments.

(2) From when is he liable [to be stoned]? When he eats a tarteimar of meat and drinks half a log [ measure of liquid] of Italian wine. Rabbi Yosi says, a maneh [equal to one hundred zuz] of meat and a log of wine. [If] he ate [it] in a mitzvah gathering; [if] he ate [it] in [celebration of] the intercalation of the month; [if] he ate [it] as ma'aser sheni [the second tithe, which must be eaten in Jerusalem] in Jerusalem; [if] he ate nevelot [an animal not properly slaughtered] or terefot [a mortally wounded animal] or creepy crawlies; [if he ate] tevel [untithed produce] or ma'aser rishon [the first tithe] from which terumah [the portion given to the priest] has not been taken; or ma'aser sheni or hekdesh that has not been redeemed; [if] he ate something [in fulfillment of] a commandment or something [in violation of] a transgression; [or if] he ate all foods but did not eat meat; [or] drank all drinks but did not drink wine, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son, until he eats meat and drinks wine. As it says, (Deuteronomy 21:20) "He is a glutton and a drunkard." And even though there is no proof to the matter [from a Scriptural verse], there is a reference to the matter, as it says, (Proverbs 23:20) "Be not among winebibbers, among gluttonous eaters of flesh."

(3) If he stole from his father and ate in his father's domain; [if he stole] from others and ate in others' domain; [if he stole] from others and ate in his father's domain, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son, until he steals from his father and eats in others' domain. Rabbi Yosi bar Yehudah says, until he steals from his father and from his mother.

(4) If his father wants [to bring the son to court] and his mother does not want, [or if] his father does not want and his mother does want, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son, until they both want. Rabbi Yehudah says, if the mother were not appropriate for the father, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son. If one of [the parents] had a hand cut off, or was lame, mute, blind, or deaf-mute, he does not become a wayward and rebellious son. As it says, (Deuteronomy 21:19) "Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him," and not those whose hands have been cut off. "And bring him out," and not a lame person. (Deuteronomy 21:20) "And they shall say," and not mute people. "This our son," and not blind people. "He does not listen to our voice," and not deaf-mute people. They warn him in front of three and lash him. If he repeats his misdeeds, he is judged by a court of twenty-three. And he is not stoned until the original three [judges] are present, as it says (Deuteronomy 21:20), "This our son," he who was lashed before you. If he flees before the verdict has been reached and then his lower beard grows full, he is exempt. But if once the verdict was reached he fled, and then his lower beard grew full, he is [still] liable.

(5) The wayward and rebellious son is judged on the basis of his end. He should die innocent and not liable, because the death of the wicked is beneficial to them and beneficial to the world; but for the righteous, it is bad for them and bad for the world. Wine and sleep: for the wicked they are a benefit to them and a benefit for the world; but for the righteous, they are bad for them and bad for the world. Being scattered: for the wicked it is a benefit to them and to the world; but for the righteous, it is bad for them and bad for the world. Being gathered: for the wicked it is bad for them and bad for the world; but for the righteous, it is beneficial to them and beneficial to the world. Quiet: for the wicked it is bad for them and bad for the world; but for the righteous, it is beneficial for them and beneficial to the world.

(6) [A thief] who comes through a tunnel [into one's house] is judged on the basis of his end. If he came through a tunnel and broke a jug: if he has blood-guilt, he is liable; if he does not have blood-guilt, he is exempt.

(7) These may be saved [from transgression] with their lives [i.e. by killing them]: one who pursues his fellow to kill him, and [one who pursues] a male or a betrothed maiden [to rape them]. But one who pursues an animal [to commit bestiality], and one who [intends] to desecrate the Sabbath, and one who [intends] to worship idols, one may not save them with their lives.

(א) כי יהיה לאיש בן ולא כשיהיה לבן בן.

(ב) בן. ולא בת.

(ג) בן - ולא איש, קטן פטור שלא בא לכלל מצות.

(ד) סורר ומורה. שני פעמים. (ומורה [סורר], שוטה. ומורה, שמורה לעצמו דרך אחרת.

(ה) (ד"א) (בשביל שאכל זה ממון אביו, אמרת בן סורר ומורה ימות! אלא נדון על שם סופו - מוטב ימות זכאי ואל ימות חייב. אביו של זה חשק יפת תואר, והכניס שטן לתוך ביתו, ונעשה בנו סורר ומורה. סופו להמיתו מיתה משונה, שנאמר וכי יהיה באיש חטא משפט מות, והומת). (לא בשבת ולא ביו"ט).

(ו) ד"א, סורר על דברי אביו, ומורה על דברי אמו. סורר על דברי תורה, ומורה על דברי הנביאים. סורר על דברי עדים, ומורה על דברי הדיינים.

(ז) (סוטה כה וש"נ) אמר רבי יאשיה, שלשה דברים סח לי רבי זעירא משום אנשי ירושלים, סוטה, אם רצה בעלה למחול לה, מוחל. סורר ומורה, אם רצו אביו ואמו למחול לו, מוחלים לו. זקן ממרא על פי ב"ד, אם רצו חביריו למחול לו, מוחלים לו.

(ח) וכשבאתי והרציתי הדברים לפני רבי יהודה בן בתירא, על שנים הודה לי ועל אחד לא הודה לי. על סוטה ועל בן סורר ומורה הודה לי, ועל זקן ממרא על פי ב"ד לא הודה לי; מפני שהיה מעמיד מחלוקת בישראל.

(ט) איננו שומע בקול אביו ובקול אמו. יכול אפילו אמרו לו אביו ואמו, להדליק את הנר, ולא הדליק? תלמוד לומר "איננו שומע" "איננו שומע" לגזרה שוה. מה "איננו שומע" האמור (כאן) [להלן], בן סורר ומורה זולל וסובא; אף "איננו שומע" האמורה (להלן) [כאן], בן סורר ומורה זולל וסובא. (מה "איננו שומע") [רבי יוסי ברבי יהודה אומר,] עד שיגנוב משל אביו ומשל אמו (וכו').

(י) ויסרו אותו. במכות.

(יא) ולא ישמע אליהם. מלמד שמלקים אותו בפני שלשה.

(1) (Devarim 21:18) "If there be to a man a son (who goes astray"): and not if there be to a son (one who has not reached the state of manhood) a son.

(2) "a son": and not a daughter.

(3) "a son": and not a man (one who has reached the state of manhood.) A minor is exempt, for he is not obligated in (the observance of) mitzvoth.

(4) "sorer" ("who turns astray") "umoreh" ("and who teaches"): two times. He turns astray from the Torah, and he teaches himself a "different way" (viz. Ibid. 20) "he gluts and he guzzles."

(5) (Variantly: Just because he used his father's money he must die?! Only he is judged based on his future behavior - better he die while [relatively] innocent and not for more severe sins. His father desired a captive woman and brought the devil into his home and caused his son to be rebellious. The result will be that he will kill him in an unnatural way, as it states (v. 22) "And if there be in a man a sin whose judgment is death, then he shall be put to death...").

(6) Variantly: "sorer": against the words of his father, "umoreh": against the words of his mother. "sorer": against the words of the Torah; "umoreh": against the words of the prophets. "sorer": against the words of witnesses; "umoreh": against the words of judges.

(7) R. Yashiah said: Three things were told to me by R. Zeira in the name of the men of Jerusalem: A sotah (a woman suspected of infidelity) — if her husband wishes to forgive her, he may do so. A sorer umoreh — if his father and mother wish to forgive him, they may do so. An elder who rebels against beth-din — if his colleagues wish to forgive him, they may do so.

(8) And when I came and presented this to R. Yehudah b. Betheira, with two he agreed, and with one he did not agree. With (what was stated concerning) sorer umoreh, and with sotah, he agreed. With a rebellious elder, he did not agree — so as not to multiply dissension in Israel.

(9) "not heeding the voice of his father and the voice of his mother": I might think (that this applies) even if his father and mother told him to light a candle and he refused; it is, therefore, written "not heeding" here —"not heeding" elsewhere (Ibid. 20) as an identity (gezeirah shavah). Just as "not heeding" there — "sorer umoreh … glutting and guzzling," so, "not heeding" here" — "sorer umoreh," glutting and guzzling. "glutting and guzzling": R. Yossi b. R. Yehudah says: He is not liable (for this) until he steals (what he consumes) from his father and from his mother.

(10) "and they chastise him": by stripes.

(11) "And he does not listen to them": This teaches that he is flogged in the presence of three.

(א) ותפשו בו אביו ואמו. (סוטה כה) מלמד שאינו חייב עד שיהיה לו אב ואם, דברי רבי מאיר. רבי יהודה אומר, אם לא היתה אמו ראויה לאביו, אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה.

(ב) והוציאו אותו אל זקני עירו ואל שער מקומו. (מכות י) מצוה בזקני עירו ובשער מקומו.

(ג) ואמרו אל זקני עירו, בננו זה. שלקה בפניכם. מלמד שאם מת אחד מהם, אינו נסקל.

(ד) (סנהדרין שם) היה אחד מהם גידם או חגר או אלם או חרש או סומא, אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה. שנא' "ותפשו בו" ולא גדמים. "והוציאו אותו" ולא חגרים. "ואמרו" ולא אלמים. "בננו זה" ולא סומים. "איננו שומע בקולנו" ולא חרשים. מתרים בו בפני שלשה ומלקים אותו. חזר וקלקל, נידון בכ"ג, ואין נסקל עד שיהיו שם שלשה הראשונים, שנאמר "בננו זה" זה שלקה בפניכם. "זולל וסובא", זולל בבשר וסובא ביין. אף על פי שאין ראיה לדבר, זכר לדבר, (משלי כג) אל תהי בסובאי יין, בזוללי בשר למו. ואומר, (משלי כג) זולל וסובא יורש, וקרעים תלביש נומה.

(1) (Devarim 21:19) "Then his father and mother shall take hold of him": We are hereby taught that he is not liable unless he has a father and a mother. These are the words of R. Meir. R. Yehudah says: If his mother were not fit for (i.e., similar to) his father, he does not become a sorer umoreh.

(2) "and they shall take him out to the elders of his city and to the gate of his place": This is a mitzvah, (but not categorical).

(3) "This, our son," who received stripes before you — whereby we are taught that if one of them died, he is not stoned.

(4) (Ibid. 20) "And they shall say to the elders of his city": If one of them (either his father or his mother) had a severed hand, or were lame or mute of deaf or blind, he does not become a sorer umoreh, it being written "and they shall seize him" — and not if their hand were severed; "and they shall take him out" — and not if they were lame; "and they shall say" — and not if they were mute; "this, our son" — and not if they were blind;" "not heeding our voice" — and not if they were deaf, (in which case they could not hear his refusal to heed them.) They warn him before three (judges) and administer stripes. If he reverted to his wrong, he is judged by twenty-three, but he is not stoned unless there be among them the first three, it being written "This, our son," who received stripes before you — whereby we are taught that if one of them died, he is not stoned. "glutting and guzzling": glutting flesh and guzzling wine. Even though there is no proof for this, there is intimation of it in (Proverbs 23:20) "Do not be among the guzzlers of wine, among the glutters of flesh for themselves" and in (Ibid. 21) "For the guzzler and the glutter will be poor, and the slumberer will wear tatters."

(א) ורגמוהו כל אנשי עירו. וכי כל אנשי עירו רוגמים אותו? אלא במעמד כל אנשי עירו.

(ב) באבנים. יכול באבנים מרובות? תלמוד לומר באבן. יכול באבן אחת? תלמוד לומר באבנים. אמור מעתה, לא מת בראשונה ימות בשניה.

(ג) (סנהדרין עא) א"ר יוסי, וכי מפני שאכל זה תרטימר בשר ושתה חצי לוג יין, נסקל? אלא הגיעה תורה לסוף ענינו של זה, ואמרה ימות זכאי ואל ימות חייב. שמיתתם של רשעים נאה להם ונאה לעולם, ורע לצדיקים רע להם ורע לעולם. יין ושינה לרשעים נאה להם ונאה לעולם, ולצדיקים רע להם ורע לעולם. שקט לרשעים רע להם ורע לעולם ולצדיקים נאה להם ונאה לעולם.

(ד) ובערת הרע. בער עושי הרעות מישראל.

(1) (Devarim 21:21) "Then all the people of his city shall stone him": Now do all the people of his city stone him? The intent is, rather, in the presence of all the people of his city.

(2) "with stones": I might think, with many stones; it is, therefore, written "with a stone." I might think with one stone; it is, therefore, written "with stones." How so? If he does not die with the first stone, he is dispatched with a second.

(3) R. Yossi said: Now is this one stoned because he ate a tartimar of flesh and drank half a log of wine? Rather, the Torah probed to the "end" of this one, and said: "Let him die innocent, and let him not die guilty." For the death of the wicked is beneficial for them and beneficial for the world. What is bad for the righteous is bad for them and bad for the world. Wine and sleep for the wicked is good for them and good for the world; for the wicked, bad for them and bad for the world. Quiet for the wicked is bad for them and bad for the world; for the righteous, good for them and good for the world. The father of this one desired a yefath toar (a woman of beautiful form), and he brought the Satan into his house and his son became a sorer umoreh, whose end is to die a violent death, it being written (following) "And if there be in a man a sin whose judgment is death, then he shall be put to death."

(4) "and you shall remove the evil": Remove the doers of evil from Israel.

אמר רב חנן בר מולדה אמר רב הונא אינו חייב עד שיקח בשר בזול ויאכל יין בזול וישתה דכתיב זולל וסובא ואמר רב חנן בר מולדה אמר רב הונא אינו חייב עד שיאכל בשר חי וישתה יין חי איני והא רבה ורב יוסף דאמרי תרווייהו אכל בשר חי ושתה יין חי אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה אמר רבינא יין חי מזיג ולא מזיג בשר חי בשיל ולא בשיל כבשר כיבא דאכלי גנבי רבה ורב יוסף דאמרי תרווייהו אכל בשר מליח ושתה יין מגיתו אין נעשה בן סורר ומורה תנן התם ערב תשעה באב לא יאכל אדם שני תבשילין ולא יאכל בשר ולא ישתה יין ותנא אבל אוכל הוא בשר מליח ושותה יין מגתו
Rav Ḥanan bar Molada says that Rav Huna says: A stubborn and rebellious son is not liable unless he purchases inexpen-sive [bezol] meat and eats it, and he buys inexpensive wine and drinks it, as it is written: “He is a glutton [zolel] and a drunkard.” And Rav Ḥanan bar Molada says that Rav Huna says: A stubborn and rebellious son is not liable unless he eats raw meat and drinks undiluted wine. The Gemara raises a difficulty: Is that so? But don’t Rabba and Rav Yosef both say: If he ate raw meat or drank undiluted wine he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son? Ravina said: The two conflicting statements can be reconciled. If he ate totally raw meat or drank totally undiluted wine, he is in fact exempt. The undiluted wine for which he is liable is wine that is diluted but not diluted properly. And the raw meat for which he is liable is meat that is cooked but not cooked properly, like the scorched meat that thieves are wont to eat, due to the hasty manner in which they must prepare their food. Rabba and Rav Yosef both say: If he ate heavily salted meat or drank wine from his winepress, i.e., wine that has not finished fermenting, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. And on a related topic we learned in a mishna elsewhere (Ta’anit 26b): On the eve of the Ninth of Av, a person may not eat two cooked dishes in one meal. And furthermore, he may neither eat meat nor drink wine. And a tanna taught in a baraita: But one may eat heavily salted meat, as it is not considered meat, and one many drink wine from his winepress before it has properly fermented.
אכל בחבורת מצוה: אמר רבי אבהו אינו חייב עד שיאכל בחבורה שכולה סריקין והאנן תנן אכל בחבורת מצוה אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה טעמא דמצוה הא לאו מצוה אע"ג דלאו כולה סריקין הא קמ"ל דאע"ג דכולה סריקין כיון דבמצוה קא עסיק לא מימשיך: אכל בעיבור החודש: למימרא דבשר ויין מסקו והתניא אין עולין לה אלא בפת דגן וקטנית בלבד הא קמ"ל אע"ג דאין עולין לה אלא בפת וקטנית ואיהו אסיק בשר ויין ואכל כיון דבמצוה קא עסיק לא ממשיך
§ The mishna teaches that if the son ate and drank the requisite amounts of meat and wine with a group assembled for the performance of a mitzva, he does not become liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. Rabbi Abbahu says: He is not liable unless he eats with a group that is entirely made up of idlers. This seems to indicate that if he eats and drinks in the company of decent people, even if he consumes the required amounts that would otherwise make him liable, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara asks: But didn’t we learn in the mishna: If the son ate and drank the requisite amounts of meat and wine with a group assembled for the performance of a mitzva he does not become liable as a stubborn and rebellious son? A precise reading of the mishna indicates that the reason that he does not become liable is that he ate and drank with a group assembled for the performance of a mitzva. But if they were not assembled for the performance of a mitzva he would be liable even if the group is not entirely made up of idlers. The Gemara answers: There is no contradiction between the mishna and the statement of Rabbi Abbahu. In fact, the son is liable only if he eats with a group of whom all are idlers. And the mishna teaches us this: That even if the group is entirely composed of idlers, since they are occupied with a mitzva, there is no concern that he will be drawn to sin. The mishna teaches that if the son ate and drank the requisite amounts of meat and wine at a meal celebrating the intercalation of the month he does not become liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara asks: Is this to say that meat and wine are brought up to the upper chamber where the month is intercalated? But isn’t it taught in a baraita: They ascend to intercalate the month only with a meal consisting of bread made of grain and legumes? The Gemara answers: The mishna teaches us this: Even though they ordinarily ascend to the upper chamber only with bread and legumes, and he brought up meat and wine and ate them, since they are occupied with a mitzva, there is no concern that he will be drawn to sin.
אכל מעשר שני בירושלים: כיון דכי אורחיה הוא קא אכיל ליה לא ממשיך: אכל נבילות וטריפות שקצים ורמשים: אמר רבא אכל בשר עוף אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה והא אנן תנן אכל נבילות וטריפות שקצים ורמשים אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה הא טהורין נעשה בן סורר ומורה כי תנן נמי מתני' להשלים: אכל דבר שהוא מצוה ודבר עבירה: דבר מצוה תנחומי אבלים דבר עבירה תענית ציבור וטעמא מאי אמר קרא (דברים כא, כ) איננו שומע בקולנו בקולנו ולא בקולו של מקום: אכל כל מאכל ולא אכל בשר שתה כל משקה ולא שתה יין וכו': אכל כל מאכל ולא אכל בשר לאיתויי דבילה קעילית שתה כל משקה ולא שתה יין לאיתויי דבש וחלב דתניא אכל דבילה קעילית ושתה דבש וחלב ונכנס למקדש
§ The mishna teaches that if he ate second tithe in Jerusalem he is not liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara explains: Since he eats the second tithe in the normal way, i.e., as he is commanded, in Jerusalem, he will not be drawn to sin. The mishna teaches that if he ate the meat of unslaughtered animal carcasses or tereifot or repugnant creatures or creeping animals, he is not liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. Rava says: If the boy ate the meat of fowl, even if he ate the required amount, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara raises a difficulty: But didn’t we learn in the mishna that if the boy ate the meat of unslaughtered animal carcasses or tereifot or repugnant creatures or creeping animals, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son? A precise reading of the mishna indicates that it is only if he ate the meat of such animals that he is not liable; but if he ate the meat of kosher animals, which includes the meat of fowl, he would become a stubborn and rebellious son, counter to the ruling of Rava. The Gemara resolves this difficulty: When we learned this in the mishna as well, it was in reference to completing the measure of meat. Rava was speaking of the primary consumption of meat. The mishna teaches that if he ate an item that involves performing a mitzva or an item that involves committing a transgression, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara explains: This ruling concerning an item that involves performing a mitzva includes mitzvot by rabbinic law, such as comforting mourners. And the ruling concerning an item that involves committing a transgression includes transgressing prohibitions by rabbinic law, such as eating on a communal fast. The Gemara asks: And what is the reason that eating an item involving a mitzva or a transgression does not render him a stubborn and rebellious son? The Gemara answers: The verse states: “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voices” (Deuteronomy 21:20), which indicates that the halakha applies to a boy who does not obey “our voices,” i.e., the voice of his parents, but not to one who also does not obey the voice of God. The mishna teaches that if the rebellious boy ate any other food but did not eat meat, or if he drank any beverage but did not drink wine, he is not liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara clarifies. That which the mishna teaches: The statement: If he ate any other food but did not eat meat, comes to include pressed figs from the town of Ke’ila, the eating of which is as satisfying as eating meat, but for which one is not liable. And that which the mishna teaches: The statement: If he drank any beverage but did not drink wine, comes to include honey and milk, which, though they can have a slightly intoxicating effect, do not render him liable as a stubborn and rebellious son. From where is it learned that honey and milk are intoxicating? As it is taught in a baraita: If a priest ate pressed figs from Ke’ila, or drank honey or milk, thereby becoming intoxicated, and he then entered the Temple to perform the Temple service,
מתני׳ היה אביו רוצה ואמו אינה רוצה אביו אינו רוצה ואמו רוצה אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה עד שיהו שניהם רוצין רבי יהודה אומר אם לא היתה אמו ראויה לאביו אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה: גמ׳ מאי אינה ראויה אילימא חייבי כריתות וחייבי מיתות ב"ד סוף סוף אבוה אבוה נינהו ואמיה אמיה נינהו אלא בשוה לאביו קאמר תניא נמי הכי רבי יהודה אומר אם לא היתה אמו שוה לאביו בקול ובמראה ובקומה אינו נעשה בן סורר ומורה מאי טעמא דאמר קרא איננו שומע בקלנו מדקול בעינן שוין מראה וקומה נמי בעינן שוין כמאן אזלא הא דתניא בן סורר ומורה לא היה ולא עתיד להיות ולמה נכתב דרוש וקבל שכר כמאן כרבי יהודה איבעית אימא ר' שמעון היא דתניא אמר רבי שמעון וכי מפני שאכל זה תרטימר בשר ושתה חצי לוג יין האיטלקי אביו ואמו מוציאין אותו לסקלו אלא לא היה ולא עתיד להיות ולמה נכתב דרוש וקבל שכר אמר ר' יונתן אני ראיתיו וישבתי על קברו
MISHNA: If his father wishes to have him punished but his mother does not wish that, or if his father does not wish to have him punished but his mother wishes that, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son, unless they both wish that he be punished. Rabbi Yehuda says: If his mother was not suited for his father, the two being an inappropriate match, as the Gemara will explain, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. GEMARA: The Gemara asks: What does Rabbi Yehuda mean when he speaks of the mother as being not suited for the father? If we say that due to their union they are among those who are liable to receive karet, in which case the marriage does not take effect, and certainly if the union puts them in the category of those who are liable to receive one of the types of court-imposed death penalty, in which case the marriage also does not take effect, there is a difficulty: Why should it matter if they are not married? Ultimately, his father is still his father and his mother is still his mother, and the verses concerning the stubborn and rebellious son can be fulfilled. Rather, Rabbi Yehuda is saying that the boy’s mother must be identical to his father in several aspects. The Gemara comments: This is also taught in a baraita: Rabbi Yehuda says: If his mother was not identical to his father in voice, appearance, and height, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son. The Gemara asks: What is the reason for this? As the verse states: “He will not obey our voices [kolenu]” (Deuteronomy 21:20), which indicates that they both have the same voice. And since we require that they be identical in voice, we also require that they be identical in appearance and height. The Gemara asks: In accordance with whose opinion is that which is taught in a baraita: There has never been a stubborn and rebellious son and there will never be one in the future, as it is impossible to fulfill all the requirements that must be met in order to apply this halakha. And why, then, was the passage relating to a stubborn and rebellious son written in the Torah? So that you may expound upon new understandings of the Torah and receive reward for your learning, this being an aspect of the Torah that has only theoretical value. In accordance with whose opinion is this? It is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, who requires that the parents have certain identical characteristics, making it virtually impossible to apply the halakha. If you wish, say instead that this baraita is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Shimon. As it is taught in a baraita that Rabbi Shimon says: And is it simply due to the fact that the boy ate a tarteimar of meat and drank a half-log of Italian wine that his father and his mother shall take him out to stone him? Rather, there has never been a stubborn and rebellious son and there will never be one in the future. And why, then, was the passage relating to a stubborn and rebellious son written in the Torah? So that you may expound upon new understandings of the Torah and receive reward for your learning. Rabbi Yonatan says: This is not so, as I saw one. I was once in a place where a stubborn and rebellious son was condemned to death, and I even sat on his grave after he was executed.
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