Rav Avi: Hi, welcome to Responsa Radio, where you ask and we answer questions of Jewish law in modern times! I'm Rabbi Avi Killip, here with Rabbi Ethan Tucker, Rosh Yeshiva of Mechon Hadar, a center for higher Jewish learning based in New York City. Alright. This is a really interesting question.
Rav Eitan: Do we ever have a non-interesting question, Avi?
Rav Avi: I know. Well, we don't answer those, I guess! This question comes from a student on campus, and they are asking, "Are there any halakhic problems with praying with Muslims? There is a reflection room on my campus where I regularly go to pray, and Muslim students will also pray at a similar time. Is there anything halakhically problematic with this? Would the concerns be any different if they were Christian or Hindu students, especially if the Hindu students had idols of some sort?" So, very practical, and probably very relevant for a number of people.
Rav Eitan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this sounds like a question, like a lot of the ones that we get, that has, like, a whole bunch of sub-questions — I don't know, I'll try to break it out here. But you help me and tell me if I'm missing an angle, and we'll do our best. This could be the kind of question where we also want to come back to some parts of it. You know, question one is, is it permitted to pray in a room with an idolatrous character? Let's assume we've got something idolatrous going on — can you pray in that room? The room has that character. And to the extent we're thinking about the character of a room, how do we think about Muslim, Christian, and Hindu rites and beliefs in that regard? How do they interplay with our, you know, thinking about idolatry? Then a sort of next level down — is it a problem to pray next to a person who's engaging in idolatry, in some kind of neutral space, which seems closer to what we're dealing with here, meaning the concern. And then there is a sort of even more general question, I feel like — is it a problem to pray next to a non-Jew who is engaging in a non-Jewish but maybe non-idolatrous form of worship?
Rav Avi: So, on the first level, it could really be somewhat of a question of, you know, can I pray in a mosque, or can I pray in a church, or in a Hindu temple? You know, the second level down sounds more like this description here of sort of generic chapel space, or what they call "reflection room" on campus. I think there are similar spaces like that in hospitals and in airports that are sort of designated prayer spaces. Or maybe even more neutral is, you know, to find yourself standing in the middle of the airport praying next to somebody who's praying differently than you. And then I guess that next question of does it —
Rav Eitan: Right, or on an airplane, right? You could be sitting next to them on the airplane itself.
Rav Avi: Or the subway, you know — living in Manhattan, there's a lot of subway praying of all kinds that I think I see probably pretty regularly, like, daily, of one kind or another. And then this last question of, does it matter, right, do I care who that person is praying to? That question on its own is so interesting, you know, the idea that I should be sitting on the subway and if I'm trying to pray I should be thinking about the person next to me and who they might be praying to. So where does all of that take us?
Rav Eitan: Yeah. Okay. So let me start at the top level, and sort of work down, because I think it's important just to sort of model how that conversation even plays out. Look, there's no question that if you have a room that has an idolatrous character to it, okay, without defining exactly what qualifies for that, but something where there are idols, it's been devoted to that, it's part of that history of worship — you can't pray in that place. I think we can say that very clearly, that the permission to pray in a place that has some kind of either non-Jewish or blended character, et cetera, is on some level predicated on feeling like that what goes on in that place can be sort of sanctioned and accepted by the religious Jewish view on the world. And this is obviously on a much deeper question of, what is the category of idolatry doing at all, how do we think about that today — I think it's something a lot of people have a tough time with. But certainly historically, you know, a lot of the discussions have been over how does Judaism process other faiths and where they fit into what is kind of a Biblical binary, which is, there's the Jews worshipping the G-d of Israel, and then it seems like there's everyone else who are idolaters.
And are there other religions, and maybe even all of the religions that have emerged over time, that somehow take us to a place where we can imagine some excluded middle, things that are clearly not Jewish, but we also do not, you know, sort of consider them to be idolatrous? And there, just quickly, I don't want to do this in great depth, but there's been discussion about all the various options. The biggest discussions, obviously, have been about Islam and Christianity. With respect to Islam, you have some voices that have said, even Islam should be sort of treated as a form of idolatry; the most famous voice in this regard is the Ran, Rav Nissim of Gerona in 14th century Spain, and he basically says that both Christianity and Islam treat their various holy figures and, you know, some of their spaces of worship as things that they bow down to, and this gives them, you know, a kind of idolatrous status that makes those form of worship totally unacceptable, and by extension makes it totally forbidden for a Jew to pray in a mosque. Again, we're not talking about praying during the time of Muslim prayer, necessarily, but even to pray in there at all when it's empty.
That, for the most part, with respect to Islam, was a minority view. The Rambam and many others, the Rambam most vociferously though, came out and simply said absolutely not, he sort of has an interesting responsum where he says look, there are a lot of things that Muslims do that I don't like, but the one thing you can't tar them with is polytheism. They have the purest monotheistic faith that you will find, and from that perspective, even though he says they distort things sometimes when they talk about Judaism where I don't like the way, you know, they think about the covenant with the Jews as it fits in with larger, you know, arc of humanity, et cetera, I will not, you know, suggest in any way that they are idolaters, or that their faith in G-d is compromised in any way. And that, for the most, is carried today, where there has been broad Jewish consensus around saying Islam is a monotheistic faith and, you know, none of the proscriptions around idolatry and Jewish law apply to it.
Rav Avi: It's always fun when you cite the Rambam as your voice for, you know, I don't know, I want to use the word "pluralism," of having this concept of just because we disagree on a lot of important things doesn't make you an idolater.
Rav Eitan: Yeah, exactly. And obviously the Rambam would think it was heresy and totally unacceptable for a Jew to become a Muslim, but what he certainly is willing to say is, this is a perfectly good and in many places he writes, you know, fantastically positive development for humanity, you know, that there's many people in the world who have become Muslims, and that is overall a plus. And so it's very clear that someone who takes that kind of a view, well, there's nothing even to talk about with respect to praying in a Muslim space or near Muslims — they're not doing anything wrong, or anything problematic, even judged by Jewish terms. Why would you even get, you know, into that discussion? I'll get to complicate that in a minute, but theologically, you know, that's one space.
Christianity plays out much more differently — Christianity, here I would say, yes, the minority view, or the less represented view over time, has been that — articulated by the Meiri, in some ways hinted at by the Ramah in the Shulkhan Arukh in a few places, would be ot say yeah, Christianity is also not idolatry, or in a kind of beautiful sleight of hand, Christianity is not idolatry for Christians but it is for Jews. Meaning what? To say that to the extent Christianity has a theological problem for Jews, it is the sort of adding on of Jesus as the son of G-d to the godhead, and therefore it's not strictly idolatry of believing in another god, but it falls under the category of shituv, of adding in other figures and sort of sources of power to what ought to be the indivisible unitary G-d. And there are at least some views that say that gentiles are not forbidden from doing that. If they need a sort of additional grafting onto the one G-d creator of the universe to fill out the picture, that's okay, but Jews are strictly forbidden.
One way or the other, there have been some voices that have said Christianity should also not be understood as idolatry. That said, it must be said as a matter of historical record that there is no question that many Jews, certainly European Jews but also the Rambam was among them, the Rambam was very clear that he thought Christianity was idolatry, and essentially saw the move towards the incarnation of G-d in the form of man as being an unacceptable theological deviation, not just on Jewish terms but even on sort of Jewish imperialistic theological terms with the way human beings should think. And for people who have taken that stance —
Rav Avi: So the dominant narrative leaves us with more concern about a church than about a mosque?
Rav Eitan: That's correct. There's no question that in the broad history of halakhah, it has been viewed much more problematic to go into a church than into a mosque, to pray in a church than in a mosque. But as I said, there have been voices on both sides of this, and one of the things that's been striking to see is you have had, particularly in the wake of Vatican II and various other gestures from the Catholic Church, efforts across the denominational spectrum of Judaism to try to find a way to speak about Christianity in terms that can sort of admit it to the fellowship of religions, you know, for lack of a better term, that Judaism can see itself as a part of without putting up these walls of idolatry.
Rav Avi: Right, it just makes me think of, I think there's been a lot of conversation, especially in the past election cycle, of this concept of Judeo-Christian, and, you know, what is that, and where did it emerge from, and when did we sort of put those two together — I feel like that trend probably fits into some of those conversations.
Rav Eitan: Yeah. Now, of course the last religion to be mentioned here, Hinduism, I think is something that classically Jews from the outside have said, well, whatever you say about Christianity and Islam, come on, that's idolatry. Like, they have idols. Or, right? I mean, what can we talk about here? And it was interesting actually, just recently I ran into Rabbi Daniel Schperber, who's a prominent Israeli rabbi and thinker and writer, and he told me one of his projects that he's working on now is actually thinking much more deeply about Hinduism and its theological assumptions and trying to contribute in a way he thinks, you know, there have barely been any poskim throughout the generations that have known enough about Hinduism to really sort of understand its internal theology. He said to me, he's working on writing this now, but he's become thoroughly convinced that Hinduism should also be viewed as a monotheistic faith, albeit with physical manifestations and other things which perhaps, again, maybe would be out of line in a Jewish context — we might view them as a kind of golden calf kind of moment for us — but to the extent that they are actually not internally understood as being worshipping other objects, we should sort of reevaluate that.
So, one of the issues here is also in thinking about other religions, is obviously a question of what are the relationships between Jews and the people in those religions, but then also a question of how much do we understand what people internally are thinking and talking about, and what's our concern about idolatry, and where is it resident? Now we can't get into all of that here, but I just want to say that there is some sort of prior question here of the faiths of people that one is meeting or interacting with in these spaces, and the character of these rooms, does actually invite some degree of, I don't think it's necessarily theological dialogue, but understanding, theological understanding, cross-cultural, cross-religion understanding of how do we relate to some of these other faith structures and how do they play out? And that has not been even in uniform with respect to different religions throughout Jewish and halakhic history.
Rav Avi: That's helpful. So we've gone through the three options, the three different religions or scenarios that the questioner presented. Take us into the meditation room or the reflection room on campus, and who walks in the door and how does that affect my mincha?
Rav Eitan: Alright. Good. So, let's say — let's assume here, particularly if it's called a "reflection room," that the room itself is basically completely neutral. And even to the extent that there are some props of the various religions stored there, which is certainly the case — I don't know if it's the case in a campus reflection room, certainly in an airport, you know, you'll have, like, there will be a sefer Torah, there will be a crucifix, there will be an unadorned cross, you know, so the Catholics and Protestants can all sort of find there way. And there will be prayer mats, which may be laid out or taken away at different times. And there might even be, like, a closet that has, you know, some figurines that are also available.
But let's assume the space is really neutral. I think you can solidly say that a space like that is not an idolatrous space; it's essentially a room where people have been given license to bring things in and out, and maybe there's a storage closet where also people have been given license to store things. And so in that sense, the room presents no problem. And the question then really comes down to, well, what about when a person comes in and they're — let's start with they're engaging with something that I feel is a form of idolatry. So, here I want to say two things. The first is to affirm that, yeah, that might be a problem, to the extent that the person comes in and sets up a figurine and it's in the direction you're facing and saying the amidah, you know, some kind of prayer that you're saying, I think you would have to turn around, right? In other words, you cannot be in the situation where because of the way someone else has entered the space and is using it, you are even — there's even the appearance of you engaging in the same kind of activity which would be problematic. And in that sense, I can imagine certain configurations where, yeah, you actually have to reorient yourself, or maybe even stop praying at that moment, and wait until they're done.
Rav Avi: So it sounds like you're making a distinction between, am I praying with this person, am I praying next to this person, or near this person, and to the extent that it could seem like I'm praying with them, that would be a problem. I just want to clarify, that's only a problem if I think that what they're doing is idolatrous, right? If I'm in the camp of, oh, I don't think that Muslim worship is idolatrous, then even if it looks like we're sort of praying with each other, then I'm still in the clear?
Rav Eitan: Yeah, though I want to get back to a different set of concerns on that in a minute, because I think there might be another angle there that's problematic. But one aspect is that. I want to sort of start and say yes, the presence of someone doing idolatry in a given space may in fact, you know, create an issue. But there's another issue here, which is how much we're responsible for other religious motifs or activities suddenly coming and invading Jewish prayer space. How much you have to sort of, in that sense, respond to someone else actually, you know — you were there praying, and then someone else comes in — how much am I actually expected to react?
And here, there's an important and somewhat famous, for people who know the literature, mishnah in Avodah Zarah, in the tractate that deals with various issues around idolatry, and it's a case of Rabban Gamliel being in a bathhouse in Akko, in the town of Akko in northern Israel. And it's a bathhouse that's devoted to Aphrodite. And what that means is, there was a sculpture and, you know, what seems to be a de facto kind of idol, of Aphrodite up on the wall. And Rabban Gamliel is in the bathhouse and another Greek figure is talking with him there, and says, how can you be here in this bathhouse getting benefit from this idolatrous space? His initial substantive answer is, I didn't come in to her space; she came into my space. Meaning what? They didn't say, let's make a bathhouse in order to honor Aphrodite; they made a bathhouse and then someone put up a statue of Aphrodite as part of the adornment of the space. And Rabban Gamliel here is essentially saying when you have a space that's defined a certain way, and then suddenly it gets a character that comes in from the outside, you are not obligated to sort of preemptively account for all of the ramifications of that.
And I would suggest there might be a parallel here, with respect to someone coming into this space of this room and suddenly engaging in some kind of idolatrous worship, and again, controlling for bowing down to their figurine, I think it's legitimate to say that doesn't have to change your entire orientation to the space. But let's get to the last one, because this is really, I think, where it gets — on some level it's simple, but it raises some other interesting stuff. What about someone who you are, you know, totally fine, not just because of pluralism, but even internal theological metrics, saying I don't think this person is doing anything wrong, there's no idolatry going on here, but I'm sort of sitting right next to someone not Jewish and praying with them. So here I want to name and acknowledge that there is a good degree of boundary anxiety around that kind of question at various times in Jewish history, particularly in the modern period.
I think, you know, one of the voices who is most nervous about this was Rav Solovechick in 20th century America. He talked all the time about the Christianization of the synagogue — he raised that around the mechitza, he raised it around various issues of decorum and this and that — he was clearly very nervous about some kind of convergence of religious instincts. I think if you go back to the Ran's opinion about Islam, there's some degree of boundary anxiety there. That is to say, it's hard to completely disentangle the theological questions of saying well, this person is, you know, an idolater, et cetera, from the desire to maintain distinctiveness and separateness.
Rav Avi: Okay. So this feels like another distinction, maybe, of going into a church or into a Hindu temple to pray, versus, you know, especially if you're already praying and then somebody walks in and sets something up, that that could really be a distinction.
Rav Eitan: Well, this is what I'm saying, where I think that rungs below the surface for some of these figures. In other words, they're worried that seeing too much commonality between different forms of worship will ultimately somehow lead to a blending, a syncretism of this or that. And I just want to name that — that is not actually my primary instinct or fear, certainly not in a case like this where people just happen to be meeting up in a neutral room, but I think if you don't name things like that, sometimes they kind of grow out of proportion.
And there is some place there for talking about certain kinds of parallel worship practices that we might think are totally fantastic each on their own terms, and nonetheless want to kind of keep separate, and that, I suspect, is also part of what the questioner here is grappling with. Which is, I think it's great that there's Muslims on campus, I think it's great that they're coming in to pray. I even find some degree of solidarity with the notion that each of us has to duck in between classes and we sort of have a shared culture in that way. And I sense, though, some degree of nervousness, of okay, but we're not the same, like, can we really actually just be davening in the same space? So, the first thing I want to name that. And I think it's perhaps okay — maybe there's even something a little healthy to retain some nervousness about it. Now, that said, I think there's also sort of the pushback from the other side, where starting with the Tosefta and culminating in the Shulkhan Arukh, you have this kind of amazing text that says when a non-Jew says a blessing, you answer "amen," okay? Now, the context here could be grace over food, it could be something broader than that, but the general context is clear — it's something where you feel blessing or prayer is totally appropriate, and you are, you know, meant to affirm it. Now, as you can predict, there's all kinds of discussions that then play out — what does that mean, you're allowed to? Does it mean you have to? You know, you can imagine how this gets dissected.
But what it does affirm, I think we can't sort of forget this is, well, how are you answering "amen?" You're obviously standing next to the person, right? And they're engaging in some kind of religious act, and you are actually participating in some way. Right? Now, that doesn't mean you're holding a joint prayer service, it doesn't mean you're breaking down the boundaries, but it does mean the Shulkhan Arukh itself sort of notes and affirms that there will be times and places where non-Jews will be praying, Jews will be present, and not only is that tolerable, but assuming that it's okay, it's appropriate — at least it is legitimate — to answer "amen." And that, I think, provides another useful model for saying that yes, when we do feel that we can in good conscience affirm what's going on in someone else's prayer and religious life, we shouldn't be afraid of the fact that we'll sometimes share spaces with them, and the fact in the case of this questioner, the specific questions that are asked, certainly with respect to Islam and Muslim prayer, I don't think this person should have any hesitation of being in the room.
My own inclination kind of post-Vatican II, et cetera, is also with the side that has that sort of embracing take on Christianity as well, even as I think there are aspects of Christianity that are more problematic from an internal, Jewish perspective, and that, yeah, the interesting questions of where we go as we come to understand Hinduism and other religions more deeply — I think that sharing the room with someone in that space, as long as you're careful about the integrity of your own practice, does feel like it's a boundary one doesn't need to be worried about.
Rav Avi: Yeah, right. I appreciate your articulation of the value of noticing it, of being aware of it, and maybe there even being a little value in feeling a little uncomfortable, without it being a problem and without needing to separate from it. I think from the text of, the idea of saying "amen" is extremely powerful to me, especially in contexts where you find someone giving sort of a, you know, a benediction at a graduation, or in a courtroom, where we do have, you know, in our modern lives, especially in America, many instances where someone gives some sort of a generic blessing wherein, you know, it's like I can imagine myself, it's like when I don't hear "in the name of Jesus," then I feel okay to say "amen," and when I do hear that, then, you know, I sort of withhold the "amen" at the end of the benediction.
Rav Eitan: Yeah. And this of course is, you know, more sort of private sharing of space, and maybe it even provides a kind of healthy model of what it means to respect the fact that, you know, we can't really all fully pray together, but that doesn't mean we can't pray near each other. Right? Or sometimes have a sense of we're engaged in something parallel, maybe there's even some overarching shared purpose, but we each have to do it on our own, and on our own terms.
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