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The Oral Talmud with Benay Lappe and Dan Libenson Episode 24

Welcome to The Oral Talmud!

Below you will find the original video recording of this episode, the core Talmud sources from the conversation (click their citation hyperlinks to find the texts in their fuller context), and a section of Further Learning (links to books, articles, and additional resources mentioned by our hosts). And remember, the most fulfilling way to deepen your learning is to find a chevruta (a study partner) to share it with!

About this episode & Questions to ask yourself and/or a chevruta as you encounter this conversation:

Last week, Dan & Benay began to learn how the Talmud questions and defends the principle of Pikuach Nefesh, the teaching that we can and should break Shabbat and, therefore, (almost) any commandment in order to save a life. This conversation does start by getting new listeners caught up, and the previous episode is available for going deeper. This week, we learn the final proof, which, like many episodes, inspires many connections to American law; this time we get into more of the meta on why we make these connections...
  • As the rabbis start to put together a new system, what are some of the values that they put at the center of that system? How do they make the transition from a previous system which may not have had those radical values to one that now does? How do they kind of maintain a sense of continuity through all that change?
  • How can we learn from their techniques as we work to insert back into the tradition the missing innovations and values that are just as radical shifts to the tradition we’ve received as breaking Shabbat to save a life was for the Rabbis?
  • How do we extend their work to save the lives of queer people too?
  • How do we navigate and counter slippery slope arguments?
  • Where do we find svara in the American legal system?
  • Why don’t we learn these techniques for change? Is it by design, fear, incompetence?
  • What would it be like to teach the history and role of fixing the tradition?
  • And finally, why does the Talmud give all these proofs and make the absurd claim that the final proof is one that can’t be refuted?

מתני׳ מי שאחזו בולמוס מאכילין אותו אפי' דברים טמאים עד שיאורו עיניו מי שנשכו כלב שוטה אין מאכילין אותו מחצר כבד שלו ור' מתיא בן חרש מתיר

ועוד אמר ר' מתיא בן חרש החושש בגרונו מטילין לו סם בתוך פיו בשבת מפני שהוא ספק נפשות וכל ספק נפשות דוחה את השבת

מי שנפלה עליו מפולת ספק הוא שם ספק אינו שם ספק חי ספק מת ספק כותי ספק ישראל מפקחין עליו את הגל מצאוהו חי מפקחין ואם מת יניחוהו

MISHNA: In the case of one who is seized with the life-threatening illness bulmos, causing him unbearable hunger pangs and impaired vision, one may feed him even impure foods on Yom Kippur or any other day until his eyes recover, as the return of his sight indicates that he is recovering. In the case of one whom a mad dog bit, one may not feed him from the lobe of the dog’s liver. This was thought to be a remedy for the bite, but the Rabbis deem it ineffective. And Rabbi Matya ben Ḥarash permits feeding it to him, as he deems it effective.

And furthermore, Rabbi Matya ben Ḥarash said: With regard to one who suffers pain in his throat, one may place medicine inside his mouth on Shabbat, although administering a remedy is prohibited on Shabbat. This is because there is uncertainty whether or not it is a life-threatening situation for him, as it is difficult to ascertain the severity of internal pain. And a case of uncertainty concerning a life-threatening situation overrides Shabbat.

Similarly, with regard to one upon whom a rockslide fell, and there is uncertainty whether he is there under the debris or whether he is not there; and there is uncertainty whether he is still alive or whether he is dead; and there is uncertainty whether the person under the debris is a gentile or whether he is a Jew, one clears the pile from atop him. One may perform any action necessary to rescue him from beneath the debris. If they found him alive after beginning to clear the debris, they continue to clear the pile until they can extricate him. And if they found him dead, they should leave him, since one may not desecrate Shabbat to preserve the dignity of the dead.

וכבר היה ר' ישמעאל ורבי עקיבא ורבי אלעזר בן עזריה מהלכין בדרך ולוי הסדר ורבי ישמעאל בנו של רבי אלעזר בן עזריה מהלכין אחריהן נשאלה שאלה זו בפניהם מניין לפקוח נפש שדוחה את השבת

נענה ר' ישמעאל ואמר (שמות כב, א) אם במחתרת ימצא הגנב ומה זה שספק על ממון בא ספק על נפשות בא ושפיכות דמים מטמא את הארץ וגורם לשכינה שתסתלק מישראל ניתן להצילו בנפשו ק"ו לפקוח נפש שדוחה את השבת

נענה ר"ע ואמר (שמות כא, יד) וכי יזיד איש על רעהו וגו' מעם מזבחי תקחנו למות מעם מזבחי ולא מעל מזבחי ואמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן לא שנו אלא להמית

The Gemara relates: It once happened that Rabbi Yishmael, and Rabbi Akiva, and Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya were walking on the road, and Levi HaSadar and Rabbi Yishmael, son of Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya, were walking respectfully behind them, since they were younger and did not walk alongside their teachers. This question was asked before them: From where is it derived that saving a life overrides Shabbat?

Rabbi Yishmael answered and said that it is stated: “If a thief be found breaking in and be struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood-guiltiness for him” (Exodus 22:1). Now, if this is true for the thief, where there is uncertainty whether he comes to take money or to take lives, and it is known that bloodshed renders the land impure, since it is stated about a murderer: “And you shall not defile the land” (Numbers 35:34), and it causes the Divine Presence to depart from the Jewish people, as the verse continues: “In the midst of which I dwell, for I the Lord dwell in the midst of the children of Israel” (Numbers 35:34), and even so the home owner is permitted to save himself at the cost of the thief’s life, then a fortiori saving a life overrides Shabbat.

Rabbi Akiva answered and said that it is stated: “And if a man comes purposefully upon his neighbor to slay him with guile, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die” (Exodus 21:14). The phrase “take him from My altar” implies that if the murderer is a priest and comes to perform the service, one does not wait for him to do so but takes him to his execution immediately. But one should not take him from on top of My altar. If he already began the service and is in the midst of it, one does not take him down from the altar immediately but instead allows him to finish his service. And Rabba bar bar Ḥana said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: They taught only that a priest is not removed from the altar in order to execute him for murder,

אבל להחיות אפילו מעל מזבחי ומה זה שספק יש ממש בדבריו ספק אין ממש בדבריו ועבודה דוחה שבת קל וחומר לפקוח נפש שדוחה את השבת

נענה רבי אלעזר ואמר ומה מילה שהיא אחד ממאתים וארבעים ושמונה איברים שבאדם דוחה את השבת קל וחומר לכל גופו שדוחה את השבת

רבי יוסי בר' יהודה אומר (שמות לא, יג) את שבתותי תשמורו יכול לכל ת"ל אך חלק

רבי יונתן בן יוסף אומר (שמות לא, יד) כי קודש היא לכם היא מסורה בידכם ולא אתם מסורים בידה

ר' שמעון בן מנסיא אומר (שמות לא, טז) ושמרו בני ישראל את השבת אמרה תורה חלל עליו שבת אחת כדי שישמור שבתות הרבה

א"ר יהודה אמר שמואל אי הואי התם הוה אמינא דידי עדיפא מדידהו (ויקרא יח, ה) וחי בהם ולא שימות בהםאמר רבא לכולהו אית להו פירכא בר מדשמואל דלית ליה פירכא

דר' ישמעאל דילמא כדרבא דאמר רבא מאי טעמא דמחתרת חזקה אין אדם מעמיד עצמו על ממונו והאי מידע ידע דקאי לאפיה ואמר אי קאי לאפאי קטילנא ליה והתורה אמרה בא להרגך השכם להרגו ואשכחן ודאי ספק מנלןדר' עקיבא נמי דילמא כדאביי דאמר אביי מסרינן ליה זוגא דרבנן לידע אם ממש בדבריו ואשכחן ודאי ספק מנא לןוכולהו אשכחן ודאי ספק מנא לן

ודשמואל ודאי לית ליה פירכא אמר רבינא ואיתימא רב נחמן בר יצחק טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפא ממלא צנא דקרי

but to preserve a life, e.g., if the priest can testify to the innocence of one who is sentenced to death, one removes him even from on top of My altar, even while he is sacrificing an offering. Just as this priest, about whom there is uncertainty whether there is substance to his words of testimony or whether there is no substance to his words, is taken from the Temple service in order to save a life, and Temple service overrides Shabbat, so too, a fortiori, saving a life overrides Shabbat.

Rabbi Elazar ben Azarya answered and said: Just as the mitzva of circumcision, which rectifies only one of the 248 limbs of the body, overrides Shabbat, so too, a fortiori, saving one’s whole body, which is entirely involved in mitzvot, overrides Shabbat. Other tanna’im debated this same issue.

Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, says that it is stated: “But keep my Shabbatot (Exodus 31:13). One might have thought that this applies to everyone in all circumstances; therefore, the verse states “but,” a term that restricts and qualifies. It implies that there are circumstances where one must keep Shabbat and circumstances where one must desecrate it, i.e., to save a life.

Rabbi Yonatan ben Yosef says that it is stated: “For it is sacred to you” (Exodus 31:14). This implies that Shabbat is given into your hands, and you are not given to it to die on account of Shabbat.

Rabbi Shimon ben Menasya said: It is stated: “And the children of Israel shall keep Shabbat, to observe Shabbat” (Exodus 31:16).The Torah said: Desecrate one Shabbat on his behalf so he will observe many Shabbatot.

Rav Yehuda said that Shmuel said: If I would have been there among those Sages who debated this question, I would have said that my proof is preferable to theirs, as it states: “You shall keep My statutes and My ordinances, which a person shall do and live by them” (Leviticus 18:5), and not that he should die by them. In all circumstances, one must take care not to die as a result of fulfilling the mitzvot. Rava commented on this: All of these arguments have refutations except for that of Shmuel, which has no refutation.

The Gemara explains Rava’s claim: The proof brought by Rabbi Yishmael from the thief who breaks in could perhaps be refuted based on the principle of Rava, as Rava said: What is the reason for the halakhaabout the thief who breaks in? There is a presumption that while a person is being robbed he does not restrain himself with respect to his money. And this thief knows that the homeowner will rise to oppose him and said to himself from the start: If he rises against me, I will kill him. And the Torah states: If a person comes to kill you, rise to kill him first. We found a source for saving a life that is in certain danger, but from where do we derive that even in a case where there is uncertainty as to whether a life is in danger one may desecrate Shabbat? Consequently, Rabbi Yishmael’s argument is refuted. The proof of Rabbi Akiva can also be refuted. He brought the case of removing a priest from altar service in order to have him testify on another’s behalf, since his testimony might acquit the accused and save him from execution. But perhaps that halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Abaye, as Abaye said: If the accused says he has a witness in his favor, we send a pair of rabbis on his behalf to determine if his words of testimony have substance. These rabbis would first check that the testimony of the priest is substantive before removing him from the altar. If so, we have found that one interrupts the Temple service to save a life from certain danger, but from where do we derive that one interrupts the Temple service when the likelihood of saving life is uncertain?And for all the other arguments as well, we have found proofs for saving a life from certain danger. But for cases of uncertainty, from where do we derive this? For this reason, all the arguments are refuted.

However, the proof that Shmuel brought from the verse: “And live by them,” which teaches that one should not even put a life in possible danger to observe mitzvot, there is certainly no refutation. Ravina said, and some say it was Rav Naḥman bar Yitzḥak who said with regard to this superior proof of Shmuel: One spicy pepper is better than a whole basket of squash, since its flavor is more powerful than all the others.

(א) וַיְדַבֵּ֥ר יהוה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֥ה לֵּאמֹֽר׃ (ב) דַּבֵּר֙ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וְאָמַרְתָּ֖ אֲלֵהֶ֑ם אֲנִ֖י יהוה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ (ג) כְּמַעֲשֵׂ֧ה אֶֽרֶץ־מִצְרַ֛יִם אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְשַׁבְתֶּם־בָּ֖הּ לֹ֣א תַעֲשׂ֑וּ וּכְמַעֲשֵׂ֣ה אֶֽרֶץ־כְּנַ֡עַן אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֲנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אֶתְכֶ֥ם שָׁ֙מָּה֙ לֹ֣א תַעֲשׂ֔וּ וּבְחֻקֹּתֵיהֶ֖ם לֹ֥א תֵלֵֽכוּ׃ (ד) אֶת־מִשְׁפָּטַ֧י תַּעֲשׂ֛וּ וְאֶת־חֻקֹּתַ֥י תִּשְׁמְר֖וּ לָלֶ֣כֶת בָּהֶ֑ם אֲנִ֖י יהוה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ (ה) וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֤ם אֶת־חֻקֹּתַי֙ וְאֶת־מִשְׁפָּטַ֔י אֲשֶׁ֨ר יַעֲשֶׂ֥ה אֹתָ֛ם הָאָדָ֖ם וָחַ֣י בָּהֶ֑ם אֲנִ֖י יהוה׃ (ס) (ו) אִ֥ישׁ אִישׁ֙ אֶל־כָּל־שְׁאֵ֣ר בְּשָׂר֔וֹ לֹ֥א תִקְרְב֖וּ לְגַלּ֣וֹת עֶרְוָ֑ה אֲנִ֖י יהוה׃...

(כד) אַל־תִּֽטַּמְּא֖וּ בְּכָל־אֵ֑לֶּה כִּ֤י בְכָל־אֵ֙לֶּה֙ נִטְמְא֣וּ הַגּוֹיִ֔ם אֲשֶׁר־אֲנִ֥י מְשַׁלֵּ֖חַ מִפְּנֵיכֶֽם׃ (כה) וַתִּטְמָ֣א הָאָ֔רֶץ וָאֶפְקֹ֥ד עֲוֺנָ֖הּ עָלֶ֑יהָ וַתָּקִ֥א הָאָ֖רֶץ אֶת־יֹשְׁבֶֽיהָ׃ (כו) וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֣ם אַתֶּ֗ם אֶת־חֻקֹּתַי֙ וְאֶת־מִשְׁפָּטַ֔י וְלֹ֣א תַעֲשׂ֔וּ מִכֹּ֥ל הַתּוֹעֵבֹ֖ת הָאֵ֑לֶּה הָֽאֶזְרָ֔ח וְהַגֵּ֖ר הַגָּ֥ר בְּתוֹכְכֶֽם׃ (כז) כִּ֚י אֶת־כָּל־הַתּוֹעֵבֹ֣ת הָאֵ֔ל עָשׂ֥וּ אַנְשֵֽׁי־הָאָ֖רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֣ר לִפְנֵיכֶ֑ם וַתִּטְמָ֖א הָאָֽרֶץ׃ (כח) וְלֹֽא־תָקִ֤יא הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ אֶתְכֶ֔ם בְּטַֽמַּאֲכֶ֖ם אֹתָ֑הּ כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר קָאָ֛ה אֶת־הַגּ֖וֹי אֲשֶׁ֥ר לִפְנֵיכֶֽם׃ (כט) כִּ֚י כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֣ר יַעֲשֶׂ֔ה מִכֹּ֥ל הַתּוֹעֵב֖וֹת הָאֵ֑לֶּה וְנִכְרְת֛וּ הַנְּפָשׁ֥וֹת הָעֹשֹׂ֖ת מִקֶּ֥רֶב עַמָּֽם׃ (ל) וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֣ם אֶת־מִשְׁמַרְתִּ֗י לְבִלְתִּ֨י עֲשׂ֜וֹת מֵחֻקּ֤וֹת הַתּֽוֹעֵבֹת֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר נַעֲשׂ֣וּ לִפְנֵיכֶ֔ם וְלֹ֥א תִֽטַּמְּא֖וּ בָּהֶ֑ם אֲנִ֖י יהוה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ (פ)

(1) The LORD spoke to Moses, saying: (2) Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: I the LORD am your God. (3) You shall not copy the practices of the land of Egypt where you dwelt, or of the land of Canaan to which I am taking you; nor shall you follow their laws. (4) My rules alone shall you observe, and faithfully follow My laws: I the LORD am your God. (5) You shall keep My laws and My rules, by the pursuit of which man shall live: I am the LORD. (6) None of you shall come near anyone of his own flesh to uncover nakedness: I am the LORD....

(24) Do not defile yourselves in any of those ways, for it is by such that the nations that I am casting out before you defiled themselves. (25) Thus the land became defiled; and I called it to account for its iniquity, and the land spewed out its inhabitants. (26) But you must keep My laws and My rules, and you must not do any of those abhorrent things, neither the citizen nor the stranger who resides among you; (27) for all those abhorrent things were done by the people who were in the land before you, and the land became defiled. (28) So let not the land spew you out for defiling it, as it spewed out the nation that came before you. (29) All who do any of those abhorrent things—such persons shall be cut off from their people. (30) You shall keep My charge not to engage in any of the abhorrent practices that were carried on before you, and you shall not defile yourselves through them: I the LORD am your God.

References and Further Reading

[1] Regarding the Maccabees fighting on Shabbat: “The Chashmonaim and War on the Sabbath” on Jewish Adventure’s Blogspot (with a dissenting viewpoint from Jubilees), and a scholarly paper “To Fight Or Not To Fight: The Sabbath And The Maccabean Revolt” by Sigve K. Tonstad (Andrew’s University, Seventh Day Adventists)
[2] For David Kraemer on the Gemara’s agenda, listen to The Oral Talmud: Episode 4 - Retelling the History - David Kraemer
[3] For HaMayveen Yavin המבין יבין “Those who understand will understand” explore the entry in Jewish English Lexicon, and the article “It’s a Hebrew Thing — You Get It or You Don’t” through the Forward
[5] Rabbi Steve Greenberg, Orthodox Gay Rabbi, with more about his book “Wrestling With God and Men” (on wikipedia)
[6] For the mountain held over our heads, and accepting Torah being sourced to the Book of Esther, listen to “The Oral Talmud: Episode 2: Voiding the Torah”
[7] Menachem Elon (wiki article) pointing out that, as Benay puts it “svara drives every innovation.” From “The Basic Norm and the Sources of Jewish Law,” Jewish Law: History, Sources, Principles (Ha-mIshpat Ha-Ivri), Vol. 2, 987-989 (semi-available on Archive dot org, so scribed out as follows): An important creative source of Jewish law is the legal reasoning (sevarah) employed by the halakhic authorities. Legal reasoning as a creative source of halakhic rules involves a deep and discerning probe into the essence of halakhic and legal principles, an appreciation of the characteristics of human beings in their social relationships, and a careful study of the real word and its manifestations. ...Clearly, an interpretation, whether explanatory, logical, or analogical, must be preceded by reasoning that leads and guides the interpreter. The same is true for legislation: legislative enactments are the result of certain needs dictated by logic and experience. Even custom, the covert legislation of the people as a whole, in the nal analysis arises out of various logical and experiential needs perceived by the public or by some segment of the people. Certainly, ma’aseh—both as judicial decision and as conduct of a halakhic authority—is fashioned by the individual logic and reasoning of the authority involved. The halakhic authorities stressed the importance of the role of logic and reasoning particularly in the civil-law areas of the Halakhah.
[8] For Ari Kelman on interviewing Jews, and the power of the word “tradition,” listen to “Judaism Unbound Episode 74: Beyond Jewish Identity - Ari Y. Kelman”
[10] “The Jewish Case for Abortion Rights” by Sheila Katz And Danya Ruttenberg, with a quote from Rabbi Jacob Emden allowing abortion for to avoid emotional pain (on the National Council of Jewish Women website)
[11] Discussion of the “Doctrine of Absurdity” in the Wikipedia article for Statutory Interpretation
[12] “The Constitution is Not a Suicide Pact” (article on Wikipedia)
[13] “Penumbra of Emanations” discussed more in the previous episode of The Oral Talmud (wikipedia)
[14] For Rabbi Yishmael’s 13 Exegetical Principles explore this PDF, suggested to us by SVARA Fellow Emet Monts (unknown author)
[15] Lawrence v. Texas, when Sodomy Laws were deemed unconstitutional, and placed the decision in the “svara” of a right to privacy (wiki article)
[16] Court of Equity (article on Wikipedia)
[17] A reflection on Justice John Robert’s umpire philosophy in analysis of his choices in Trump’s presidencies (at rsn dot org)
[18] Ben Sorer u’Moreh is the laws regarding stoning a Stubborn and Rebellious Son, which the Talmud displays acrobatics in legislating/logicing out of existence. (Link goes to the topic page on Sefaria)
[19] The Three Fifths Clause of the Constitution (on wikipedia)
[21] Audre Lorde: “The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House” Speech from 1983, read in full at The Anarchist Library
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