The Oral Talmud with Benay Lappe and Dan Libenson Episode 15

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Below you will find the original video recording of this episode, the core Talmud sources from the conversation (click their citation hyperlinks to find the texts in their fuller context), and a section of Further Learning (links to books, articles, and additional resources mentioned by our hosts). And remember, the most fulfilling way to deepen your learning is to find a chevruta (a study partner) to share it with!

Here are some questions to ask yourself and/or a chevruta as you encounter this conversation:

This week we return to the legend of Rabbi Meir, who we began learning about in Episode 13. When we met him, he was a master of Rabbinic acrobatics, able to turn any law inside out, and offer his incredible logic as support. Now we’re going back a page to learn about his origins, who his teachers were - and how he learned to “Gemar his Gemara & Savar his Svara!”

Why hone our gemirna and savirna?
How do we learn to find the radical messages on every page of Talmud?
What do we get from different teachers?
When do we turn to Rashi’s commentary, and how do we put it in context?
Why do we ask “why”?

עירובין י״ג א

אָמַר רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן לֵוִי: כׇּל מָקוֹם שֶׁאַתָּה מוֹצֵא ״מִשּׁוּם רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל אָמַר תַּלְמִיד אֶחָד לִפְנֵי רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא״ — אֵינוֹ אֶלָּא רַבִּי מֵאִיר, שֶׁשִּׁימֵּשׁ אֶת רַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל וְאֶת רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא...

בִּשְׁלָמָא שִׁימּוּשׁ אַשִּׁימּוּשׁ לָא קַשְׁיָא: מֵעִיקָּרָא אֲתָא לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, וּמִדְּלָא מָצֵי לְמֵיקַם אַלִּיבֵּיהּ — אֲתָא לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי יִשְׁמָעֵאל, וּגְמַר גְּמָרָא, וַהֲדַר אֲתָא לְקַמֵּיהּ דְּרַבִּי עֲקִיבָא, וּסְבַר סְבָרָא.

Eruvin 13a

Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said: Anywhere that you find a statement introduced with: A certain disciple said before Rabbi Akiva in the name of Rabbi Yishmael, it is none other than Rabbi Meir, who was the student who served both Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Akiva....

The Gemara comments: Granted, there is no difficulty between the accounts in the two sources with regard to service and service, as it can be suggested as follows: Initially, he (Rabbi Meir) came before Rabbi Akiva to study, but he wasn't able to "stand on his mind"; he then came before Rabbi Yishmael and "gamar-ed his gemara"/"learned his learning." Afterward, he returned and came before Rabbi Akiva and "savar-ed his svara"/"reasoned his reasoning."

סוטה כ׳ א

מעיקרא אתא לקמיה דר' עקיבא כיון דלא מצי קם אליביה אתא לקמיה דר"י וגמר גמרא הדר אתא לקמיה דר"ע סבר סברא

Sotah 20a

Initially, he (Rabbi Meir) came before Rabbi Akiva to study, but he wasn't able to "stand on his mind"; he then came before Rabbi Yishmael and "gamar-ed his gemara"/"learned his learning." Afterward, he returned and came before Rabbi Akiva and "savar-ed his svara"/"reasoned his reasoning."

רש"י על סוטה כ׳ א:א׳-נ׳

וגמר גמרא - המשניות סתומות כמו שהן כדגמיר להו מרבו ורבו מרבו:

והדר אתא לקמיה דר"ע למיסבר סברא - לעמוד על עיקר טעמי המשנה מפני מה זה טמא וזה טהור זה אסור וזה מותר ועל מה כל דבר נסמך ועל איזה מקרא וזה תלמוד שהיה בימי התנאים ולהבין דבר מתוך דבר כשהיה דבר חדש נשאל בבית המדרש מהיכן ילמדוהו ולאיזה משנה ידמוהו:

Rashi on Sotah 20a:1-50

Gamar-ed his gemara: The simple, plain mishnas/oral teachings, just as they are, as they were taught by his teacher, and his teacher from his teacher.

Savar-ed his svara: To stand on the essence of the reasons for the mishna/oral teaching. On account of what is this impure and this pure, this forbidden and this permitted, and upon what is each thing supported, or on which verse. And this is what was called “talmud” in the days of the Tannaim. And to understand a thing from within a thing. When a new thing would be asked in the bet midrash, from where would they learn it out, and to which mishna would they analogize it.

References and Further Reading

[1] Upcoming Oral Talmud interviews: Daniel Boyarin, Shai Secunda, Moulie Vidas (at Princeton’s website)

[2] The Oral Talmud: Episode 4 - Retelling the History - David Kraemer

[3] The Oral Talmud: Episode 14 - Reading the Angel of Death with Ruth Calderon

[4] Richard Elliot Friedman shares perspectives on the assemblage of the Bible on The Bible for Normal People Podcast

[5] Rabbi Yitz Greenberg, co-founder of Clal (their website)

[6] Dan’s connection between not wearing a mask to prevent the spread of COVID and other diseases being like Drunk Driving has been a common and compelling thought. As of writing these show notes in 2025, COVID is still the cause of death for more people than drunk driving, with far less cultural mitigation (article from Cambridge University Press for example)

[7] The Orchard by Yochi Brandes, translated by Dan Libenson (podcast episode of Judaism Unbound)

[8]“What’s Bothering Rashi: A Guide to In-Dept Analysis of his Torah Commentary” (on archive.org)

[9] The Oral Talmud: Episode 6 - Narrating the Law with Barry Wimpfheimer

[10] On the subject that Justices Scalia and Ginsburg were friends and enjoyed opera together: “Scalia/Ginsburg: A (Gentle) Parody of Operatic Proportions” by Derrick Wang (wikipedia entry)

[11] For Moses in Rabbi Akiva’s classroom listen to The Oral Talmud: Episode 9 - Turning Around

[12] “If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him,” a koan attributed to Linji (wikipedia)

[13] Jon A Levisohn’s “A Menu of Orientations to the Teaching of Rabbinic Literature” (free from Brandeis)

[14] Rava on What we will be asked when we die: Did you understand a thing from within a thing davar mee’tokh davar (Shabbat 31a)

[15] “Metaphors We Live By” by George Lakoff

[16] David Weiss Halivni (wikipedia entry)

[17] Menachem Elon (wikipedia entry)

Visit The Oral Talmud's web site at www.OralTalmud.com

Learn more Talmud with Benay Lappe at SVARA by checking out www.svara.org

Check out Dan Libenson's Judaism Unbound podcast and find other interesting learning opportunities at www.JudaismUnbound.com and www.jewishLIVE.org